Discussion:
Only Pope Ratzinger saves beleive in him
(too old to reply)
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-19 16:29:17 UTC
Permalink
Looks like Senex religionists will be firmly in control in the Vatican for
the foreseeable future. No condoms for all those Catholics who live in
countries with AIDS and overpopulation problems, more of the same old, same
old.

Ratzinger undoubtedly has his list of undesirable liberal-Puer Aeternus
Catholics that he will begin to purge from the Catholic Faith now that he's
God's regent on earth.

The members of Universal House of Justice and Ratzinger should get along
just fine seeing that They are of the same mind-set.

Yours Larry
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-19 17:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Brid,

Pay no attention to Larry. He just jealous because we have none of the
glamour, excitement, drama, and verve that the Catholic Church has.

When that whisp of black smoke turned to undoubted white, I thought I'd
collapse with the suspense and excitement of it all. And when those
bells started to chime they took my breath away. Nine men in black
suits and shiney shoes walking onto the platform at pilgrimage is nice
but doesn't compare to the splendour of thousands of people cheering,
dancing, singing, and applauding at the appearance of the newly elected
Vicar of Christ. Now that took my breath away.

Have you seen the Yahoo post on what's happening Catholic-wise among
blacks in South Africa? Kind of thrilling. We never seem to hear
what's happening there Baha'i-wise. If it's anything like South
Carolina, Allah forbid, we're not doing very well. Here's the site:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050415/ap_on_re_eu/pope_african_flock

Darrick, I wonder how the Mormons are doing in Africa, since the
President lifted the Curse of Cain from off our shoulders? Have you
heard? --Cal
Brid
2005-04-19 19:59:09 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for that link, Cal. I had no idea that Catholicism was doing so
well in South Africa, most interesting. In Ireland my only exposure to
black Catholicism was through St Martin de Porres who enjoyed a
widespread devotion here and through the excitement of hearing
recordings of the Missa Luba. I don't know how PC that would be
anymore, but it was my first introduction to the phenomenon of
acculturation. I remember that the singers were called Les Troubadours
du Roi Baudouin which would evoke the spectre of the Belgian Congo. We
Irish had an interest in that too as one of our national heroes, Sir
Roger Casement, was instrumental in exposing the cruelties of that
particular colonial regime.

I had to postpone our evening meal when I heard the news from Rome and
like you I enjoyed every moment of the drama - the smoke, the bells,
the crowds and all the anticipation. I don't think Larry will have too
much to worry about in any case as the UHJ didn't even make the Papal
funeral invitee list.Didn't Wahid say earlier that Cardinal Ratz was in
charge of that?

I watched a video online of the funeral service of the former Greek
Orthodox Archbishop Iakavos of America last night.The Archbishop's
funeral was of a much different character, of course, and I saw
some-red hatted Catholic VIPs plus some skullcapped Jewish guests among
the mourners but I doubt that the Baha'is made that list either. Maybe
it would help if you had some distinguishing headgear for these
occasions. I then watched a video about Archbishop Iakovos's life. I
had no idea that he had marched with Dr King and been famously pictured
on the cover of Time magazine with him. Stirring stuff.

Brid
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-19 22:36:30 UTC
Permalink
Brid,

Curiously, that march you mention, along with the subsequent marches
precipitated the controversy that erupted in the famous "Civil Rights
Covention," the annual convention where there was a split down the floor
between Baha'is wanting to participate in the civil rights marches and
sitins and those who did not. The did nots sort of won, but most of the
other side did what we wanted anyway. Now it seems that we were always
in favor of Dr. King's marches. (Juan Cole wrote a delightful paper on
the subject. I think it's on Internet but I can't find it.) I
interviewed for it since I was there and still a youth but rather
non-naive. The highlight of the Convention was when a bellicose civil
rights member of the NSA and supporter of us youth called his confreres
a naughty name and split the scene to pioneer to his beloved Haiti.

I like Missa Luba, but Missa Criola knocks me out. Did you ever see my
poem about my experiencing Mass in the Mexican Basilica in San Antonio?
When the Mariachi band played and sang the Gloria I could see the Glory
riding His red roan stallion at the head of His retinue out of the
Garden of Ridvan. "Aleluja!' my angels sang as the sun streamed through
the stained glass windows. It was as though there had been no Saturday
night goodtiming and falling from grace, because Grace permeated the
atmosphere, was present and real. Missa Criola is my kind of religious
music. --Cal
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 04:30:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
I had to postpone our evening meal when I heard the news from Rome and
like you I enjoyed every moment of the drama - the smoke, the bells,
the crowds and all the anticipation. I don't think Larry will have too
much to worry about in any case as the UHJ didn't even make the Papal
funeral invitee list.Didn't Wahid say earlier that Cardinal Ratz was in
charge of that?
I doubt if Nima would know. But a couple of years ago Cardinal
Ratzinger issued a doctrinal statement that basically reiterated the
doctrine of 'no salvation outside the church' and by church he meant
his church, not yours, Brid. For all his recent statements on
ecumenicalism, this isn't exactly what he is known for. He's the guy
who did Hans Kung in. Twelve years ago I had a graduate student at
Murray State who was such a conservative Catholic I used to jokingly
call him Cardinal Ratzinger. When he asked me who Cardinal Ratzinger
was I told him he was the brains behind the papacy and would be the
next pope. He tracked me down last night and sent me an email reminding
me of my prediction. I had forgotten all about.

warmest, Susan
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-21 06:35:21 UTC
Permalink
...doubt if Nima would know.
Actually he would, because he made inquiries directly from the Brisbane
Archdiocese, and besides there is nothing on the Vatican website
regarding the funeral of JPII that remotely mentions your cult or your
participation. Everyone was there except you cultists.

So, you are back, eh? I heard you were hospitalized due to a nervous
breakdwon?

W
H***@aol.com
2005-04-21 06:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Liar
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-22 03:11:51 UTC
Permalink
Liar
Yep, a baha'i trait, most definitely.

W
Brid
2005-04-21 15:38:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
I had to postpone our evening meal when I heard the news from Rome
and
Post by Brid
like you I enjoyed every moment of the drama - the smoke, the bells,
the crowds and all the anticipation. I don't think Larry will have
too
Post by Brid
much to worry about in any case as the UHJ didn't even make the Papal
funeral invitee list.Didn't Wahid say earlier that Cardinal Ratz
was
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
in
Post by Brid
charge of that?
I doubt if Nima would know.
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether Baha'is
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Ratzinger issued a doctrinal statement that basically reiterated the
doctrine of 'no salvation outside the church' and by church he meant
his church, not yours, Brid. For all his recent statements on
ecumenicalism, this isn't exactly what he is known for. He's the guy
who did Hans Kung in.
I'm not myself a supporter of the ecumenical movement as I generally
prefer people who know who and what they are and are prepared to talk
straight about where they agree with you and where they differ. Reunion
with the eastern Church was big on the agenda of the last Pope but very
problematic for the Orthodox in the way he approached it. Ratzinger's
take is more realistic:

"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the doctrine
of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first
millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the
occasion of the Pope's visit to Phanar, designated him as the successor
of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one who also presides
in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential
content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first
millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in
this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as
heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second
millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and
orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that
development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the
Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has
always had."
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Twelve years ago I had a graduate student at
Murray State who was such a conservative Catholic I used to jokingly
call him Cardinal Ratzinger. When he asked me who Cardinal Ratzinger
was I told him he was the brains behind the papacy and would be the
next pope. He tracked me down last night and sent me an email
reminding
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
me of my prediction. I had forgotten all about.
Ah, Susan, sure the gift of prophecy would be nothing for a woman like
you who has confounded famous theologians :-)

Brid
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 20:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether Baha'is
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
I thought we were addressing the question of whether Ratzinger drew up
the invitation list, not whether or not Baha'is were invited. I don't
think it even occurred to anyone to invite Baha'is. I doubt very much
if we were being deliberately snubbed.
Post by Brid
I'm not myself a supporter of the ecumenical movement as I generally
prefer people who know who and what they are and are prepared to talk
straight about where they agree with you and where they differ.
Then you should appreciate fundamentalists of all ilks.

Ratzinger's
Post by Brid
"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the
doctrine
Post by Brid
of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first
millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the
occasion of the Pope's visit to Phanar, designated him as the
successor
Post by Brid
of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one who also presides
in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential
content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first
millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in
this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as
heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second
millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and
orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that
development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the
Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has
always had."
Does that mean that Ratzinger would be willing to allow priests to
marry and consider it alright not to see the Papacy as infallible?
Brid
2005-04-21 23:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether Baha'is
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
I thought we were addressing the question of whether Ratzinger drew up
the invitation list, not whether or not Baha'is were invited. I don't
think it even occurred to anyone to invite Baha'is.
No indeed, you aren't important enough!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
I doubt very much
if we were being deliberately snubbed.
Must be disheartening though to put all that effort in to be taken
seriously as a major league world religion and then to be not even
important enough to snub.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
I'm not myself a supporter of the ecumenical movement as I
generally
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
prefer people who know who and what they are and are prepared to talk
straight about where they agree with you and where they differ.
Then you should appreciate fundamentalists of all ilks.
Why? I'm not opposed to dialogue to further mutual respect,
understanding or to address and heal the divisions of the past. I think
it requires tough and honest talking though which the ecumenical
movement cannot deliver.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Ratzinger's
Post by Brid
"Rome must not require more from the East with respect to the
doctrine
Post by Brid
of primacy than had been formulated and was lived in the first
millennium. When the Patriarch Athenagoras, on July 25, 1967, on the
occasion of the Pope's visit to Phanar, designated him as the
successor
Post by Brid
of St. Peter, as the most esteemed among us, as one who also
presides
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
in charity, this great Church leader was expressing the essential
content of the doctrine of primacy as it was known in the first
millennium. Rome need not ask for more. Reunion could take place in
this context if, on the one hand, the East would cease to oppose as
heretical the developments that took place in the West in the second
millennium and would accept the Catholic Church as legitimate and
orthodox in the form she had acquired in the course of that
development, while, on the other hand, the West would recognize the
Church of the East as orthodox and legitimate in the form she has
always had."
Does that mean that Ratzinger would be willing to allow priests to
marry and consider it alright not to see the Papacy as infallible?
This quote is from a speech made in the 1970s, I think. The
possibilities in it are intriguing, I understand it to mean that we
would both have to accept each other as we are, so the married
priesthood would be acceptable in the east but not in the west. I'm not
sure off-hand if the eastern rite Catholics (Uniates) in communion with
Rome today are allowed to have married priests, I'd need to look into
that. One thing about occasions like the Papal funeral though is that
they show that although in countries like Ireland we are used to seeing
only the western and Roman face of the Catholic church, there is in
fact much more diversity within its ranks. So the Papal funeral
provided not only drama and verve but a visible demonstration of unity
in diversity. Right, Cal?
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-22 01:03:49 UTC
Permalink
Brid,

Right! I was greatly impressed by the fact that there were millions of
civil people filing by the Pope and nobody was screaming, shouting,
tearing their clothes, his clothes, and knocking over the bier to grab a
piece of holy relic until the place was in shambles. There's just
something civil about high church in the West that makes high church in
the Middle East (Islam) look low. I wonder how the funerals of
Baha'u'llah, 'Abdu'l-Baha, and the Guardian were carried out? --Cal
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:25:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
No indeed, you aren't important enough!
No doubt as unimportant as Christians were in the Roman Empire in 150
A.D.
Post by Brid
Must be disheartening though to put all that effort in to be taken
seriously as a major league world religion and then to be not even
important enough to snub.
Somehow I don't think I would take recognition by Cardinal Ratzinger as
a complement anyhow. An honorable mention by Hans Kung is much more
desirable and we usually get that.
Post by Brid
Why? I'm not opposed to dialogue to further mutual respect,
understanding or to address and heal the divisions of the past. I think
it requires tough and honest talking though which the ecumenical
movement cannot deliver.
The ecumenical discussions I've seen engaged in a good deal of tough
and honest talking through.
Post by Brid
This quote is from a speech made in the 1970s, I think. The
possibilities in it are intriguing, I understand it to mean that we
would both have to accept each other as we are, so the married
priesthood would be acceptable in the east but not in the west. I'm not
sure off-hand if the eastern rite Catholics (Uniates) in communion with
Rome today are allowed to have married priests, I'd need to look into
that.
The Maronites are. They were originally monophysites before they joined
the Roman Catholic Church.

One thing about occasions like the Papal funeral though is that
Post by Brid
they show that although in countries like Ireland we are used to seeing
only the western and Roman face of the Catholic church, there is in
fact much more diversity within its ranks.
Certainly much more than the last time there was a papal funeral. A
pity that diversity wasn't reflected in the selection of a new Pope.

warmest, Susan
Brid
2005-04-23 08:20:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
No indeed, you aren't important enough!
No doubt as unimportant as Christians were in the Roman Empire in 150
A.D.
Christians in 150 AD weren't sitting on the United Nations though.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Must be disheartening though to put all that effort in to be taken
seriously as a major league world religion and then to be not even
important enough to snub.
Somehow I don't think I would take recognition by Cardinal Ratzinger as
a complement anyhow. An honorable mention by Hans Kung is much more
desirable and we usually get that.
Why is a mention by Hans Kung more desirable? So, liberalism and
challenge to authority is great when it's in the Catholic church, but
you are happy to see liberal thinkers and academics driven from your
own ranks? How long would Kung last as a Baha'i? Sounds like somebody
should acquaint him with the record of censorship and excommunication
that Haifa has. Truth is you personally have more in common with
Ratzinger since you too are a former poacher turned gamekeeper.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Why? I'm not opposed to dialogue to further mutual respect,
understanding or to address and heal the divisions of the past. I
think
Post by Brid
it requires tough and honest talking though which the ecumenical
movement cannot deliver.
The ecumenical discussions I've seen engaged in a good deal of tough
and honest talking through.
Although Baha'is don't undertake discussions with their own wider
family, as they have to be shunned.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
This quote is from a speech made in the 1970s, I think. The
possibilities in it are intriguing, I understand it to mean that we
would both have to accept each other as we are, so the married
priesthood would be acceptable in the east but not in the west. I'm
not
Post by Brid
sure off-hand if the eastern rite Catholics (Uniates) in communion
with
Post by Brid
Rome today are allowed to have married priests, I'd need to look into
that.
The Maronites are. They were originally monophysites before they joined
the Roman Catholic Church.
And were allowed to keep their own traditions.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
One thing about occasions like the Papal funeral though is that
Post by Brid
they show that although in countries like Ireland we are used to
seeing
Post by Brid
only the western and Roman face of the Catholic church, there is in
fact much more diversity within its ranks.
Certainly much more than the last time there was a papal funeral. A
pity that diversity wasn't reflected in the selection of a new Pope.
He was chosen by the wider church. Not much evidence of diversity in
the selection of members of the UHJ either.

Brid
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
warmest, Susan
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-24 04:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Why is a mention by Hans Kung more desirable?
Because Hans Kung has a genuine interest in religious dialogue.

So, liberalism and
Post by Brid
challenge to authority is great when it's in the Catholic church, but
you are happy to see liberal thinkers and academics driven from your
own ranks?
Most Baha'is are liberals and they have not been driven out.
Post by Brid
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
The Maronites are. They were originally monophysites before they
joined
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
the Roman Catholic Church.
And were allowed to keep their own traditions.
I don't know about their traditions as a whole. I know the priests are
allowed to marry.
Post by Brid
He was chosen by the wider church. Not much evidence of diversity in
the selection of members of the UHJ either.
LOL. How many black people have been Pope in the history of
Christianity? How many black people have been memebers of the House of
Justice in its forty years of existence?
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-25 01:24:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Why is a mention by Hans Kung more desirable?
Because Hans Kung has a genuine interest in religious dialogue.
So, liberalism and
Post by Brid
challenge to authority is great when it's in the Catholic church, but
you are happy to see liberal thinkers and academics driven from your
own ranks?
Most Baha'is are liberals and they have not been driven out.
One trusts thou art not enumerated in that majority!
All_Bad
2005-04-23 21:05:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether
Baha'is
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
I thought we were addressing the question of whether Ratzinger drew
up
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
the invitation list, not whether or not Baha'is were invited. I don't
think it even occurred to anyone to invite Baha'is.
No indeed, you aren't important enough!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
I doubt very much
if we were being deliberately snubbed.
Must be disheartening though to put all that effort in to be taken
seriously as a major league world religion and then to be not even
important enough to snub.
The Amish were _real_ disheartened. Obviously, the Catholics would have
invited them but the municipal folks did not want their horse carts in
Vatican City - the droppings.

Seriously, you must be kidding, right?

- Mr. All Bad
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-25 01:27:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by All_Bad
The Amish were _real_ disheartened. Obviously, the Catholics would have
invited them but the municipal folks did not want their horse carts in
Vatican City - the droppings.
Last I heard the Amish did not claim to be an independent world religion.
Post by All_Bad
Seriously, you must be kidding, right?
No! I think you guys are ... if you think you are important or any great
standing in the world such that it will stop to mark your presence. Those
high horses that you sit upon drop more dung than ever attended upon Amish
carts.
Post by All_Bad
- Mr. All Bad
Brid
2005-04-25 22:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by All_Bad
Post by Brid
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether
Baha'is
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
I thought we were addressing the question of whether Ratzinger drew
up
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
the invitation list, not whether or not Baha'is were invited. I don't
think it even occurred to anyone to invite Baha'is.
No indeed, you aren't important enough!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Brid
I doubt very much
if we were being deliberately snubbed.
Must be disheartening though to put all that effort in to be taken
seriously as a major league world religion and then to be not even
important enough to snub.
The Amish were _real_ disheartened. Obviously, the Catholics would have
invited them but the municipal folks did not want their horse carts in
Vatican City - the droppings.
Comparing the second most widespread world religion with one of the
first's more particular branches?
Post by All_Bad
Seriously, you must be kidding, right?
No, I'm seriously wondering how the Hare Krishnas have representatives
there and you don't.
Post by All_Bad
- Mr. All Bad
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-22 03:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
I thought we were addressing the question of whether Ratzinger drew up
the invitation list, not whether or not Baha'is were invited
You don't pay attention very well. The _issue_ being addressed is that
the baha'is weren't invited to the papal funeral.

W
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-22 03:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether Baha'is
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
Forget about baha'i sources. Clarify it from Vatican sources. On the
official website of the Holy See, from all those religious groups who
appeared, the baha'is are conspicuously absent. Inquiries from the
Archdiocese of Brisbane by me confirmed that baha'is had not been
invited.

W
Brid
2005-04-22 13:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether
Baha'is
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Brid
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
Forget about baha'i sources. Clarify it from Vatican sources. On the
official website of the Holy See, from all those religious groups who
appeared, the baha'is are conspicuously absent. Inquiries from the
Archdiocese of Brisbane by me confirmed that baha'is had not been
invited.
W
Yes, indeed. The Baha'is are not included on the list of invitees
posted on the offical website of the Holy See:

http://www.vatican.va/gpII/documents/delegazioni-rel-esequie-jp-ii_20050408_en.html
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-22 20:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Brid
Well perhaps then you can clarify from Baha'i sources whether
Baha'is
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by Brid
were officially represented at the Papal funeral?
Forget about baha'i sources. Clarify it from Vatican sources. On the
official website of the Holy See, from all those religious groups who
appeared, the baha'is are conspicuously absent. Inquiries from the
Archdiocese of Brisbane by me confirmed that baha'is had not been
invited.
W
Yes, indeed. The Baha'is are not included on the list of invitees
http://www.vatican.va/gpII/documents/delegazioni-rel-esequie-jp-ii_20050408_en.html

But they were invited to and did attend the Vespers service held at
Westminster Cathedral along with the Prince of Wales, his former concubine
and the Vicar of St Albion's with his spouse whose headcovering provoked
some response in some circles about the Romish trends manifest in public
life.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;sessionid=53VERVBI5LD1FQFIQMGCM5OAVCBQUJVC?xml=/news/2005/04/09/ncatholic09.xml

I append the article which appeared in the online edition of the Daily
Telegraph: -

Revealed: Tony Blair's Catholic secret
By Damian Thompson
(Filed: 09/04/2005)

The scene: the nave of Westminster Cathedral, its Byzantine mosaics
glistening below bare brick walls that are still unfinished after a century.
The occasion: Solemn Vespers for His late Holiness Pope John Paul II.

Enter Tony Blair, the (Protestant) Prime Minister of the (Protestant) United
Kingdom, who makes a little bob of genuflection before the Catholic Blessed
Sacrament.

Enter the Prime Minister's wife, a feminist Catholic who did not even wear a
hat to the funeral of the Princess of Wales.

She is not wearing a hat this time, either: dangling from her head is a
black lace veil known as a mantilla. She looks like a Sicilian widow about
to fling herself on her husband's coffin.

In the pews, the editor of one Catholic newspaper turns to the chairman of
another.

Editor: "Is Cherie wearing what I think she's wearing?" Chairman: "Good God.
I haven't seen a mantilla for 20 years."

As last Monday's congregation assembled, the Cardinal, bishops and priests
of the cathedral blinked in disbelief.

In the front row sat the heir to the throne, who had just postponed his own
wedding so that he could fly to Rome for the Pope's funeral yesterday.

The Prince of Wales and Camilla Parker Bowles said that they took this
decision "immediately" on learning that the Windsor ceremony would clash
with the papal obsequies - though, as we shall see, there are reasons for
taking this claim with a pinch of salt.

On entering the pew, the Prince leaned forward awkwardly in the
time-honoured manner of Anglicans who cannot quite bring themselves to kneel
in a Catholic church.

Next to him was his fiancée; then the Prime Minister and Mrs Blair - who,
unless the cameras lied, gave Mrs Parker Bowles a distinctly old-fashioned
look from underneath her veil.

Behind them sat the leaders of the Conservative and Liberal Democrat
parties, and representatives of the Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Buddhist and
Baha'i faiths. As for the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, he
was not in the pews at all, but robed in a place of honour in the sanctuary.

"Last time I looked, Britain wasn't a Roman Catholic country," wrote Vicki
Woods in The Telegraph the next morning. And, of course, it isn't. But last
Monday, it wasn't doing a very good impression of a Protestant one.

"It was like a miracle," says Fr Michael Seed, ecumenical adviser to
Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. "Tony Blair, Prince Charles, Lady Thatcher,
John Major, Michael Howard, Charles Kennedy, the Lord Chancellor, half the
Cabinet and the entire diplomatic corps, plus the Union flag at half mast
and prayers in mosques... This is a time of God's blessing on the earth."

After the service, however, many worshippers were still fixated on the
mystery of Cherie's headgear. Wearing a mantilla in London is the equivalent
of a modern City banker sporting a bowler hat - a head-turning anachronism.

"I know she's proud of her faith, but she didn't have to rub our noses in
it," grumbled one Catholic grandee.

In fact, there was an innocent and rather sweet reason why Cherie was
wearing a mantilla: she wanted to remind herself of the time she wore it -
as convention demanded - when Pope John Paul celebrated Mass for the Blair
family at the Vatican in February 2003.

That story has never been properly told; bits of it emerged at the time,
only to be swiftly - and untruthfully - denied by Vatican sources.

Next week, however, an authoritative account of it will appear in Garry
O'Connor's new papal biography Universal Father, based on a 90-minute
interview with Cherie Blair. Only one key detail is missing.

On the day before the Mass, while Vatican officials let two-year-old Leo sit
on one of the Pope's thrones, Blair had made a fruitless attempt to persuade
the Holy Father to soften his opposition to the Iraq war.

But their lack of agreement did not spoil what happened the next morning,
which Cherie describes as the high point of her entire time as Prime
Minister's wife.

At 8am, the Blairs arrived in the Pope's private chapel to find him already
sitting facing the altar, immersed in prayer. "The image he gave," writes
O'Connor, "was for Cherie a symbol of both suffering and the defeat of
suffering. When he began to say Mass, he sprang to life: he said all of it,
the first part in English but, when he came to the Eucharistic prayer, in
Latin.

"Blair, in an off-the-peg suit and muted tie, read the first reading from
Isaiah: 'I it is who must blot out everything.' Euan, his eldest son, read
the responsorial prayer: 'Heal my soul, for I have sinned against you,' and
Kathryn, their daughter, the second reading, from Corinthians: 'Jesus was
never yes or no: with him it was always yes.' "

O'Connor then reports that "the Pope gave the family communion, while the
other celebrants gave communion to the rest of the congregation". What he
does not spell out is whether the Prime Minister took communion.

Most people have assumed that he did not, since - after years of receiving
the sacrament when he accompanied his family to Mass in London - Mr Blair
had been told by the late Cardinal Basil Hume that this was not appropriate
for a non-Catholic. He duly stopped.

On March 21, 2003, however, the Catholic Herald claimed that the Pope had
personally given Tony Blair Holy Communion - the first time in history that
a British prime minister had received the sacrament from the hands of the
pontiff.

The story was followed by such a flurry of denials that the newspaper was
forced to withdraw the claim in its next issue.

Yet it was perfectly true, as the Pope's biographer Garry O'Connor
discovered from several sources, including the papal chamberlain's office.
He glossed over it in his book "out of respect for the family," he says, but
The Telegraph this week also independently verified the story.

Did John Paul II break his own rules by administering communion to an
Anglican? Not quite: there was, at the time, a provision that non-Catholics
could ask to receive communion "on a unique occasion for joy or for sorrow
in the life of a family".

Tony Blair presumably made such a request, and would also have been expected
to assent to the Catholic doctrine that the body of Christ is really present
in the consecrated bread and wine.

No previous British prime minister has ever held this belief (though Harold
Macmillan, who was High Church, probably came close to it.)

Ironically, only two weeks after Tony Blair took communion from the Pope,
the Roman Curia issued fierce guidelines imposing a virtual ban on
distributing communion to non-Catholics.

John Paul must have known in advance that this was coming. Yet he still
granted Blair's request.

"That was typical of the man," says O'Connor. "His instinct in these
situations was always to say yes, and he often had to be restrained by
officials who wanted him to say no."

So the Blair family knew from their own experience that John Paul was not
the fundamentalist bigot of Islingtonian demonology.

The Blairs' starstruck admiration for the Pope may also help us to untangle
one of the mysteries of these chaotic last few days. On whose instructions
did the Prince of Wales postpone his register office wedding and subsequent
church blessing until Saturday?

On Monday, Paddy Harverson, the Clarence House press officer, said that as
soon as the Prince and Mrs Parker Bowles knew that the wedding and funeral
would clash, they realised that it was "absolutely the right thing" to delay
the wedding.

The decision was theirs alone, he added. "There was no communication with No
10 before or after."

That sounds straightforward enough. It would be more convincing, however, if
Clarence House had not announced shortly after the Pope's death that the
Windsor Guildhall Ceremony and marriage blessing would take place regardless
of any clash on Friday.

Did the Prince's staff make this statement off their own bat, without
consulting him? That seems incredible.

It certainly strikes one former senior courtier as preposterous. "Taken in
conjunction, the two Clarence House statements imply that Charles was
adamant that he wasn't going to postpone the wedding, but was then forced
to - and has been desperately trying to spin his way out of that situation
ever since," he says.

If so, who did the forcing? Mr Harverson may have been stretching the truth
when he said that the decision was the couple's "alone", but there is no
reason to think that he told a brazen lie about the lack of communication
between the Prince and Downing Street.

But was there any communication with Buckingham Palace? According to
reliable reports, it was the Queen who ordered Charles to spend Friday
morning listening to Latin plainchant in Bernini's magnificent piazza rather
than marrying his long-term mistress in the Guildhall at Windsor.

Why? The Queen (unlike her late sister) has no leanings towards Catholic
mysticism: she shares the robust, no-frills churchmanship of her father and
grandfather. (It is a brave clergyman who wears a Roman chasuble in the
presence of his Monarch.) She respected Pope John Paul, but her tribute to
him was the least effusive of any head of state.

On the other hand, she is no more keen than the late pontiff on register
office weddings - and, as we know, will be boycotting this one. So she is
unlikely to have turned a hair at instructing her son to postpone the event.

But the attendance of the Prince of Wales at the funeral of a pope -
especially this pope - has ramifications that oblige the Sovereign to follow
the advice of her Prime Minister and at least listen to that of the
Archbishop of Canterbury.

And it is that advice, rather than the Queen's personal wishes, that brought
about Charles and Camilla's embarrassing change of plan - that, and the fact
that, as one Royal confidant puts its, "half their bloody guests are going
to be in Rome".

According to some sources, the Archbishop was the first person to insist
that the Prince of Wales represent the Queen in Rome on Friday.

Charles, far from "immediately" concurring, as Paddy Harverson put it,
strongly resisted the suggestion.

That is when the Queen is reported to have ordered him to go. In doing so,
she was also respecting the wishes of the Prime Minister, who appears to
have accepted the invitation to the funeral at a time - Monday morning -
when the wedding was still scheduled for Friday.

The fact that, as Peter Oborne notes in this week's Spectator, Tony Blair
had "carefully RSVP'd" his wedding invitation several months ago seems to
have counted for nothing.

By Monday evening, as the Prince was ushered into Westminster Cathedral, his
staff had more or less succeeded in portraying the postponement as an act of
statesmanship.

Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, sensing the awkwardness of the situation,
did his best to remedy it. As Vespers ended, he peeled himself off from the
final procession and hurried to the West Door to greet the Prince and Mrs
Parker Bowles and say how sorry he was that their wedding plans had been
disrupted.

The heir to the throne replied with a wintry smile.

"The strange death of Protestant England" read a headline in the Guardian
the next day. "Catholicism hasn't been this chic since Bloody Mary burned
Rowan Williams's first Protestant predecessor at the stake."

And it is true that foreign tourists in England could have been forgiven for
thinking that our tabloid newspapers were edited from, say, Galway.

"Safe in heaven," revealed the Mail On Sunday. "John Paul the Great,"
proclaimed a "memorial issue" of the Mirror. Just the week before,
coincidentally, Michael Howard had told the Catholic Herald that he saw no
reason why the monarch should not be a Catholic - or marry one.

Yet the strange death of Protestant England, and what the historian Mark
Almond calls "the hollowing-out of the Protestant Succession", is
emphatically not the same thing as the rebirth of Catholicism.

Cardinal Hume discovered this when he incautiously talked about "the
conversion of England", and then spent the next decade watching his churches
empty. Mass attendance will be higher than usual tomorrow, but will quickly
revert to its disastrously low level.

A better clue to this week's Mediterranean-style outpourings is a saying
attributed to G K Chesterton - that when people cease to believe in
something, they do not believe in nothing: they believe in anything. The
death of the Pope, like the death of Diana, has briefly satisfied a
spiritual hunger that feeds off emotion and spectacle rather than doctrine.

And how interesting that both events have, to an extent, been appropriated
by the Blairs.

This is not to imply that Tony and Cherie's Christianity is any sense bogus;
but it is vastly more flexible than that of the old Polish gentleman who, at
least for a few days, has been granted the status of spiritual leader of the
whole world.

Cherie's Catholicism embraces the cause of women's ordination, something
that John Paul II specifically forbade any Catholic to support. Tony has
attended Masses for years without ever picking up the Catholic message that
late-term abortion is infanticide. He is going into this general election as
the only party leader who does not support a lowering of the abortion limit
to 20 weeks.

If John Paul II had foreseen that, we can be sure of one thing: he would not
have allowed the British Prime Minister to receive Holy Communion.

•Universal Father: A Life of Pope John Paul II, by Garry O'Connor, is
published by Bloomsbury on April 18. To order for £16 + £2.25 p&p, please
call Telegraph Books Direct on 0870 155 7222
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-22 20:57:42 UTC
Permalink
Finnegan,

Where was that guy when Ruhiyyih Khanum was alive and traveling to
England? When I saw her in the U.S. she was wearing a white mantilla.
And in the photos I've seen of her she seemed to have a preface for
white ones. What did she wear at the Guardian's funeral in London?
--Cal
Abraxas
2005-04-23 02:18:48 UTC
Permalink
You have Buddhists and even Zoroastrians in there, but no baha'is. Most
peculiar for a religion who claims to be the fastest growing in the
world with 6-7 million adherents worldwide. I doubt the Parsi community
and Iranian Zoroastrian community have those combined numbers, yet they
appear at JP II's funeral. You even have a Jeevan Mukta Swami Ganapati
in there. See list below. Btw who exactly are,


Organizations for Interreligious Dialogue

World Conference of Religions for Peace (W.C.R.P. Europe)

?

http://www.vatican.va/gpII/doc­uments/delegazioni-rel-esequie­-jp-ii_20...




DELEGATIONS OF THE CHURCHES AND CHRISTIAN COMMUNITIES
AND OTHER RELIGIONS PRESENT TO THE FUNERAL OF HIS HOLINESS

JOHN PAUL II





Delegations of the Orthodox Churches

Ecumenical Patriarchate

H.H. Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople, Ecumenical Patriarch
H.E. Gennadios, Archbishop of Italy, Exarch for Eastern Europe [of the
Ecumenical Patriarchate]
H.E. Cyril, Metropolitan of Imbros
H.E. Johannis, Metropolitan of Pergamon
Rev. Deacon Dositheos Anagnostopoulos
[Mr Nicholas Manginas, photographer]

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and All Africa

H.E. Petros, Metropolitan of Aksum

Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem

Rev. Archimandrite Theoktistos Samios, Exarch of the Greek Orthodox
Patriarchate of Jerusalem in Athens
Prof. Spyridon Kontoyannis, Lecturer at the University of Athens

Patriarchate of Moscow

H.E. Kirill, Metropolitan of Smolensk and Kaliningrad, President of the
Department for Foreign Ecclesiastical Relations of the Patriarchate
Rev. Igor Vyzhanov, Acting Secretary for Relations with the Catholic
Church of the Department for Foreign Ecclesiastical Relations of the
Patriarchate

Ukrainian Orthodox Church [Patriarchate of Moscow]

H.E. Mitrofan, Archbishop of Pereiaslav-Khmelnitskii, Chargé
d'Affaires of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church

Orthodox Church of Georgia

H.E. Daniel [Datuashvili], Metropolitan of Tskhum-Abkhazia
H.E. Gerasime [Sharashenidze], Bishop of Zugdidi and Tsaishi
Head of Interecclesial Relations of the Orthodox Church of Georgia
Rev. Archpriest Giorgi Zviadadze

Orthodox Patriarchate of Serbia

H.E. Jovan, Metropolitan of Zagreb, Lubiana and All Italy
H.E. Lavrentije, Bishop of Sabac-Valjevo

Orthodox Patriarchate of Romania

H.E. Daniel, Metropolitan of Moldova and Bucovina
H.E. Iosif, Metropolitan for Western and Southern Europe of the
Romanian Orthodox Church
Rev. Fr Ciprian Campineanul, Assistant to the Patriarch
H.E. Siluan, Bishop Assistant to the Metropolitan for Western and
Southern Europe
Rev. Deacon Costin Spiridon, Protocol Office of the Patriarchate

Orthodox Church of Finland

H.E. Leo, Archbishop of Karelia and All Finland

Orthodox Church of Bulgaria

H.E. Neofit, Metropolitan of Russe
H.E. Dometian, Metropolitan of Vidin
H.E. Tihon, Bishop Vicar of the Metropolitan of the Bulgarian Orthodox
Church for Europe
Rev. Deacon Dionissii

Orthodox Church of the Czech Republic and of Slovakia

Rev. Ladislav Bilý, Chancellor of the Metropolitan Curia
Rev. Ján Novák, Secretary of the Metropolitan Curia

Orthodox Church of Cyprus

H.E. Chrysostomos, Metropolitan of Paphos, Acting Archbishop of Nea
Justiniana and Cyprus
H.E. Basilios, Bishop of Tremithus, Assistant Bishop
H.E. Nikiphoros, Bishop of Kykkou, Hegumen of the Sacred Monastery of
Kykkou
Rev. Dyonisios Papachristophorou, Abbot of the Monastery of
Chrysoroyatissa
Rev. Archimandrite Isaias, Sacred Monastery of Kykkou

Orthodox Church of Greece

H.B. Christodoulos, Archbishop of Athens and All Greece
H.E. Ignatios, Metropolitan of Demetrias; President of the Synodal
Committee for Inter-Orthodox and Inter-Christian Relations
H.E. Nectarios, Metropolitan of Corfu
H.E. Dorotheos, Metropolitan of Syros
Rev. Proto-Presbyter Thomas Synodinos, Chancellor of the Archdiocese of
Athens
Rev. Archimandrite Ignatios Sotiriadis, Secretary of the Synodal
Commission for Inter-Christian Relations

Orthodox Church of Poland

H.E. Jeremiasz, Archbishop of Wroclaw and Szczecin

Orthodox Church of Albania

H.B. Anastas, Archbishop of Tirana and All Albania
Rev. Deacon Bakalbassi

Orthodox Church in America

H.E. Seraphim, Bishop of Ottawa
Rev. Dr Alexander Rentel, Lecturer, St Vladimir's Orthodox Theological
Seminary
Delegations of the Eastern Orthodox Churches [Ancient Churches of the
East]

Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Egypt

H.E. Barnaba El-Soryany, Bishop of Orthodox Copts in Italy

Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East

S.E. Mar Gregorios Yohanna Ibrahim, Archbishop of Aleppo

Armenian Apostolic Church

See of Etchmiadzin

H.H. Karekin II, Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians
H.B. Mesrob II [Mutafian], Armenian Patriarch of Istanbul
S.E. Khajag [Barsamian], Primate of the Eastern Diocese of the United
States (New York)
Rev. Fr Geghard Vahuni, [Private Secretary of the Patriarch]
Rev. Fr Tatul Anushian, [Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul]

Catholicossate of Cilicia for Armenians

See of Antelias

H.H. Aram I, Catholicos of Cilicia for Armenians
H.E. Bishop Nareg Alemezian, Head of Relations with the Catholic
Churches

Orthodox Church of Ethiopia

H.H. Abba Paulus, Patriarch of Ethiopia
H.E. Abuna Dr Timotheos [Habtselassie Tesfa], Archbishop, Rector of St
Trinity Theological College
H.E. Abuna Filipos [Gebremariam Feleke], Archbishop of Illubabor
Mr Ato Mulgete Bekele

Orthodox Church of Eritrea

H.E. Abuna Shenouda, Bishop of the Eritrean Churches in Europe

The Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church

Catholicate of the East

H.G. Philipose Mar Eusebios, Metropolitan of Thumpamon; President of
the Inter-Church Relations Committee

Assyrian Church of the East

H.H. Mar Dinkha IV, Catholicos Patriarch of the Assyrian Church of the
East
H.E. Mar Bawai Ashur Soro, Bishop of Eastern (U.S.A.), General
Secretary of the Commission on Inter-Church Relations and Education
Development (CIRED)
Christian Churches and Communions of the West

Anglican Communion

His Grace the Most Reverend and Right Honourable Dr Rowan Williams,
Archbishop of Canterbury
Rev. Canon Kenneth Kearon, General Secretary of the Anglican Communion
Rev. Canon Gregory Camerun, Vice-General Secretary and Director for
Ecumenical Questions and Relations of the Anglican Communion
H.G. Bishop John Flack, Representative of the Archbishop of Canterbury
to the Holy See, Director of the Anglican Centre in Rome
H.G. Peter Carnley, Primate of the Anglican Church of Australia,
Co-President of the Joint Catholic Anglican International Commission
(ARCIC)
H.G. Geoffrey Rowell, Bishop of the Diocese of Gibraltar and for Europe
and Rome
H.G. David Hamid, Suffragan Bishop of the Diocese of Gibraltar and for
Europe and Rome
Rev. Andrew Norman, First Chaplain of the Archbishop of Canterbury
Rev. Jonathan Goodall, Chaplain of H.G. Bishop Rowell
Mrs Julia Flack, Consort of Bishop John Flack
Mr Jemery Harris, [Staff of Lambeth Palace]

Old Catholic Churches of the Union of Utrecht

H.G. Joris Vercammen, President of the Union of Utrecht

Lutheran World Federation

Rev. Dr Ishmael Noko, Secretary General of the Lutheran World
Federation

Methodist World Council

Rev. Dr George Freeman, General Secretary of the Methodist World
Council
Mrs Virginia Freeman, Consort of Dr Freeman
Rev. Prof. Geoffrey Wainwright, Co-President of the Joint International
Commission for Catholic-Methodist Dialogue

World Alliance of Reformed Churches

Rev. Dr Setri Nyomi, General Secretary of the World Alliance of
Reformed Churches

World Baptist Alliance

Dr David Coffey, President of the British Free Church Council and
President appointed by the World Baptist Alliance
Dr Denton Lotz, General Secretary of the World Baptist Alliance
Mrs Janice Lotz, Consort of Dr Denton Lotz
Dr Tony Peck, General Secretary of the European Baptist Federation

Mennonite World Conference

Dr Larry Miller, Executive Secretary of the Mennonite World Conference

Disciples of Christ [Disciples of Christ, Christian Church]

Rev. Dr Robert Welsh, President, "Council for Christian Unity",
Disciples of Christ
Ms Nancy Welsh, Consort of Dr Robert Welsh

Salvation Army

Major Massimo Paone
Major Jane Paone
Representing the Department for Interecclesial Relations of the
Salvation Army
Christian International Organizations

World Council of Churches

Rev. Dr Samuel Kobia, General Secretary
H.G. Jonas Jonson, Lutheran Bishop of Strägnäs, Sweden, Co-President
of the Joint Work Group of the Catholic Church and the World Council of
Churches
Mrs Teny Pirri-Simonian, General Director of WCC, Co-Secretary of the
Joint Working Group

Conference of European Churches

H.E. Daniel, Metropolitan of Moldova and Bucovina, President
(Metropolitan Daniel is also included in the Delegation of the Orthodox
Patriarchate of Romania)
Rev. Dr Keith Winston Clements, General Secretary

Delegations of Judaism

Rome and Italy

Dr Riccardo Di Segni, Chief Rabbi of Rome
Prof. Elio Toaff, Chief Rabbi emeritus of Rome
Prof. Amos Luzzatto, President of the Union of Italian Jewish
Communities
Mr Leone Paserman, President of the Jewish Community of Rome

Israel

Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen, Grand Rabbi of Haifa
Dr Oded Wiener, General Director of the Grand Rabbinate of Israel

World Jewish Congress

Rabbi Israel Singer, President of the Governing Board of the World
Jewish Congress, President of the International Jewish Committee on
Interreligious Consultations (IJCIC)
Mrs Evelyne Singer, Consort of Rabbi Singer
Mrs Maram Stern, Vice-General Secretary of the World Jewish Congress
H.E. Shmul Hadas, Former Ambassador of Israel to the Holy See
Rabbi Arthur Schneier, President, Appeal of Conscience Foundation
Special Guests of the Churches and Ecclesial Communions

Church of Scotland

Dr Alison Elliot, OBE, Moderator of the General Assembly of the Church
of Scotland

National Lutheran Churches

Landesbischof Wolfgang Huber, President of the Evanghelische Kirche
Deutschlands (EKD) [German Evangelical Churches]
H.G. Karl-Gustav Hammar, Archbishop President of the Lutheran Church of
Sweden
H.G. Jukka Paarma, Archbishop President of the Lutheran Church of
Finland
H.G. Finn Wagle, Bishop of Nidaros, Lutheran Church of Norway

Polish National Church [United States]

Most Rev. Robert M. Nemkovich, Bishop Primate
Rev. Robert M. Nemkovich, Jr., Member of the Dialogue between the
Catholic Church and the Polish National Church of the United States
Rev. Ramsi Musallam

World Alliance of YMCAs

Dr Bartholomew Shaha, General Secretary
Mr Alessandro Indovina, President of YMCAs Italy
Mr Stefano Tomarelli, General Secretary of YMCAs of Italy

Billy Graham Evangelist Association

Dr John Akers
Dr Anne Graham Lotz
Mr Morrow Reitmaier
Dr Margaret Hoenig

Universal Biblical Alliance

Dr Valdo Bertalot, General Secretary, Biblical Alliance in Italy

Representatives of other Churches
and Ecclesial Communities in Rome and in Italy:
Exponents of Judaism

Mr Roger Cukierman, National President of the Centre of Representation
of Jewish Institutions in France (CRIF)
Dr Richard Prasquier, President of Yad-Vashem, National Delegate of
CRIF for relations with Catholics
Grand Rabbi Michel Serfaty, Delegate of the Consistory of Paris for
Relations with Catholics
[The above-mentioned Delegation is accompanied by Rev. Patrick Desbois,
Secretary of the Episcopal Committee for Relations with Jews of the
French Bishops' Conference].
Maestro Gilbert Levine
Mr Daniel Berger
Rabbi Joseph Ehrenkranz, Executive Director, Center for Christian
Jewish Understanding, Sacred Heart University (Fairfield, U.S.A.)
Dr Anthony J. Cernera, Ph.D., President, Sacred Heart University
Mr Thomas Cernera



Representatives of Other Religions and
Organizations for Interreligious Dialogue

ISLAM

Islamic Cultural Centre of Italy (Mosque, Rome)

Dr Abdellah Redouane, General Secretary
Sheikh Mahmoud Hammad Ibrahim Sheweita, Imam

Druse Community in Israel

Sheikh Muwaffaq Tarif, Spiritual Leader
Mr Kamel Salameh, Secretary
Sheikh Hassan Tarif, Staff Member

Religious Delegation of Albania

Sheikh Selim Muca, Grand Mufti of Albania
Sheikh Rashad Bardhi, Grand "Nono" of the Bektashana Organization in
the World
Mr Ilir Kulla, President of the State Committee for Forms of Religious
Worship
Mr Syrja Xhelaj, Staff Member

Al-Khoei Foundation (London, U.K.)

Sayyed Saheb Khoei, Secretary General
Qassim al-Jalali, Imam
Shaykh Salah Bilal, Religious Affairs
Mr Yousef al-Khoei, Director of Public Relations

World Islamic Call Society (Tripoli, Libya)

Dr Mansour Tantush, Director of the Rome Office

Union of Islamic Communities and Organizations in Italy (U.C.O.I.)

Dr Mohamed Nour Dachan, President
Dr Abd al-Qadir Muhammad, Imam of the Islamic Community, Perugia

Italian Islamic Religious Community (Milan)

Shaykh Abd al-Wahid Pallavicini, President

BUDDHISM

Rissho Kosei Kai (Tokyo, Japan)

Rev. Michio Matsubara, Director, External Affairs Department
Rev. Yasutomo Sawahata, Staff Member
Mr Yuichiro Taketani, Staff Member

Shinnyo-En Buddhist Order, Italy

Rev. Yutaga Okano from the Temple in Japan
Rev. Luigi Nico Vozza, General Secretary of Shinnyo-en Italy, from the
Temple in Milan

Buddhist Monastery of Rome

Ven. Dheerananda, Monk from Sri Lanka in Italy

SIKH

Guru Nanak Nishkam Sewa Jatha (Birmingham, U.K.)

Bhai Sahibji Mohinder Singh Ahluwalia, Founder
Seva Mandla, Staff Member

HINDU

Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University (London, U.K.)

Sr Maureen, Representative of the Head, Ms Dadi Janki
Sr Wendy, Staff Member

International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON)

Enzo Barchi (Ekadashi Nath)
Roberto Cultrera (Raghubeer das)
Alessandra (Akashini Radhika dasi)

Siddha Shiva Center (U.S.A.)

Jeevan Mukta Swami Ganapati
Erick Philips
Marc Oliver Manser

Organizations for Interreligious Dialogue

World Conference of Religions for Peace (W.C.R.P. Europe)

Mr Jehangir Sarosh (Zoroastrian, Moderator)
Mrs Lisa Palmieri-Billig (Vice-Moderator)

"Arigatou Foundation" in Geneva

Ms Agneta Ucko, Representative of the President
Mr Keishi Miyamoto
Brid
2005-04-23 16:40:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abraxas
You have Buddhists and even Zoroastrians in there, but no baha'is. Most
peculiar for a religion who claims to be the fastest growing in the
world with 6-7 million adherents worldwide. I doubt the Parsi community
and Iranian Zoroastrian community have those combined numbers, yet they
appear at JP II's funeral. You even have a Jeevan Mukta Swami Ganapati
in there. See list below. Btw who exactly are,
Organizations for Interreligious Dialogue
World Conference of Religions for Peace (W.C.R.P. Europe)
?
World Conference of Religions for Peace (W.C.R.P. Europe)
Mr Jehangir Sarosh (Zoroastrian, Moderator)
Mrs Lisa Palmieri-Billig (Vice-Moderator)
It's an interfaith movement dating back to 1970. The Baha'is are
mentioned as members:

http://www.wcrp.org/RforP/HISTORY_CONTENT.html


Mrs Palmieri-Billig is the American Jewish Committee's representative
in Rome and liaison to the Vatican:

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/nfo/article.cfm?id=3096

Brid
PaulHammond
2005-04-21 17:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
For all his recent statements on
ecumenicalism, this isn't exactly what he is known for. He's the guy
who did Hans Kung in. Twelve years ago I had a graduate student at
Murray State who was such a conservative Catholic I used to jokingly
call him Cardinal Ratzinger. When he asked me who Cardinal Ratzinger
was I told him he was the brains behind the papacy and would be the
next pope. He tracked me down last night and sent me an email
reminding
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
me of my prediction. I had forgotten all about.
Congratulations Susan. I don't suppose you will have put
some money on this prediction 12 years ago did you?

Incidentally, I saw the wittiest Sun headline ever
in a newsagents yesterday, reporting the election of
the new pope.

Over a full page picture of Benedict XVI, the headline
was: Papa Ratzi.

Paul
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 20:24:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
Congratulations Susan. I don't suppose you will have put
some money on this prediction 12 years ago did you?
Naah, afraid not. In fact when JPII did die I was less certain
Ratzinger would get elected because of his age.
Post by PaulHammond
Over a full page picture of Benedict XVI, the headline
was: Papa Ratzi.
LOL
PaulHammond
2005-04-22 00:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by PaulHammond
Congratulations Susan. I don't suppose you will have put
some money on this prediction 12 years ago did you?
Naah, afraid not. In fact when JPII did die I was less certain
Ratzinger would get elected because of his age.
Yeah - I heard a comment that Ratizinger's papacy wouldn't
be a long one, because he's 78, but it might last as long
as 10 years if his health holds up. Was a little surprised
to hear speculation about how long before he died on his
first day in the job...

Paul
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-22 00:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
Yeah - I heard a comment that Ratizinger's papacy wouldn't
be a long one, because he's 78, but it might last as long
as 10 years if his health holds up. Was a little surprised
to hear speculation about how long before he died on his
first day in the job...
That ties back to the official line on JPI - that he was in poor health and
overwhelmed, if not overawed by the job.

The German Shepherd is a stop-gap - some of the other "papabile" were
probably deemed too young, so more of the same seemed best. In religion
generally, fundamentalism seems to be taking a firm hold. It is always
attractive to people who fear the modern world and want a certainty that
seems to escape them in their everyday lives. I think it is especially
attractive in an inequitable society where the disadvantaged can be consoled
with expectation of eternal bliss to compensate for their masters' rapacity
that deprives them of the means of existence in this world.

Unless he lives down his image Benedict XVI will further contribute to the
emigration of the liberal from Catholicism. They form, of course, a
fruitful niche market for the Bahais to ply their wares ... if only those
wares were different to what they have fled.
Post by PaulHammond
Paul
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Finnegan's Wake
The German Shepherd is a stop-gap - some of the other "papabile" were
probably deemed too young, so more of the same seemed best.
A dangerous stop-gap if you don't like his policies. Remember Pope John
XXIII was voted in as a stop-gap too. He was nearly as old as Ratzinger
when he was elected and only lived five more years. But look at the
changes he brought in that short period! Unfortunately Cardinal
Ratzinger has already undone most of those and it is quite likely he
will undue the rest.
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-25 01:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Finnegan's Wake
The German Shepherd is a stop-gap - some of the other "papabile" were
probably deemed too young, so more of the same seemed best.
A dangerous stop-gap if you don't like his policies. Remember Pope John
XXIII was voted in as a stop-gap too. He was nearly as old as Ratzinger
when he was elected and only lived five more years. But look at the
changes he brought in that short period!
Just shows how the Papacy can change folk!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Unfortunately Cardinal
Ratzinger has already undone most of those and it is quite likely he
will undue the rest.
I somehow doubt that. Certainly the emphasis is to present him as a unifier
and downplay his reputation as an Enforcer. And he may well follow a policy
of not rocking the boat on contentious matters ... so long as nobody else
does it. After all he doesn't have ABMs going around monitoring e-mail
lists to root out dangerous radicals. And if they emerge ... well, they do
get a chance to present a defence ... at Rome, well before any disciplinary
measures are taken.

OTOH he could take a leaf from the Bahai manual and appoint ABMs to monitor
all the condom outlets to find out just who is disobeying the papal mandate
... but I really don't see it!
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-25 01:55:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Finnegan's Wake
OTOH he could take a leaf from the Bahai manual and appoint ABMs to monitor
all the condom outlets to find out just who is disobeying the papal mandate
... but I really don't see it!
You mean this manual?

"Assemblies, of course, must exercise care not to pry into the private
lives of the believers to ensure that they are behaving properly, but
should not hesitate to take action in cases of blatant misbehavior."

(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-25 02:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by Finnegan's Wake
OTOH he could take a leaf from the Bahai manual and appoint ABMs to
monitor
Post by Finnegan's Wake
all the condom outlets to find out just who is disobeying the papal
mandate
Post by Finnegan's Wake
... but I really don't see it!
You mean this manual?
"Assemblies, of course, must exercise care not to pry into the private
lives of the believers to ensure that they are behaving properly, but
should not hesitate to take action in cases of blatant misbehavior."
(Compilations, NSA USA - Developing Distinctive Baha'i Communities)
Isn't a Catholic buying condoms a case of blatant misbehaviour? After all
the chemist may know that his customer is a Catholic blatantly disobeying
Papal prescription and thereby bringing the faith into disrepute. Double
scandal if it's a woman getting the pill - as it's on medical
prescription(and no Catholic doctor would prescribe it) a, horror of
horrors, Protestant has found another Fenian disobeying the Pope!

Just you wait ... not you personally ... until the Grumpies ban
contraception so that there'll be loadsa Bahai brats inhabiting the earth!
I do believe that the practice is currently disapproved of.
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:28:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
Yeah - I heard a comment that Ratizinger's papacy wouldn't
be a long one, because he's 78, but it might last as long
as 10 years if his health holds up. Was a little surprised
to hear speculation about how long before he died on his
first day in the job...
Well, you may recall that the reason they voted such a young guy as
John Paul II Pope was because voting for someone as old as John Paul I
was didn't work so well. The Cardinals didn't even have time to unpack.
Some of us still remember that quite clearly.

warmest, Susan
PaulHammond
2005-04-27 21:50:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by PaulHammond
Yeah - I heard a comment that Ratizinger's papacy wouldn't
be a long one, because he's 78, but it might last as long
as 10 years if his health holds up. Was a little surprised
to hear speculation about how long before he died on his
first day in the job...
Well, you may recall that the reason they voted such a young guy as
John Paul II Pope was because voting for someone as old as John Paul I
was didn't work so well. The Cardinals didn't even have time to unpack.
Some of us still remember that quite clearly.
warmest, Susan
I don't recall that, actually. I was only 7 in 1978, and Margaret
Thatcher is the first prime minister I recall (oh, I have some vague
memories of Callaghan, too). Being non-Catholic, JPII is the only
pope I can remember...

Paul
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-28 04:54:23 UTC
Permalink
I was only 7 in 1978, and Margaret
Post by PaulHammond
Thatcher is the first prime minister I recall (oh, I have some vague
memories of Callaghan, too). Being non-Catholic, JPII is the only
pope I can remember...
Dear Paul,

I remember when Kennedy was elected president. I was four years old and
went around chanting:

"Kennedy, Kennedy, he's our man!
Nixon belongs in the garbage can"

I remember thinking the First Lady's job was to translate for the
President.

warmest, Susan
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-28 22:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
I remember when Kennedy was elected president. I was four years old
Hey - you got a landmark birthday this year! You're past your prime now ...
and do remember that men are like wine and improve with age!

Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-19 20:17:51 UTC
Permalink
Hi Cal,

Actually my favorite living Catholic is Matthew Fox. Well, unenrolled
ex-Catholic is more accurate seeing he got the boot.

Meister Eckhart is a cool Catholic, then again he got the boot as well.

Sister Mary Elephant is a Saint.

The Pope can keep his 'religion', the same 'religion' that is practiced by
the members of The Universal House of Justice: The 'religion' of
intolerance, of exclusivity, of male dominance, of back to the middle ages
theology. Hardly something to be jealous of.

Yours Larry
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-19 22:48:01 UTC
Permalink
Larry,

Did I say you were jealous of the Catholic authorities? I said the
drama, the excitement, and the verve. When have you seen drama and
excitement in the Faith? The last time I saw it was when the Hand of
the Cause whipped up the delegates to the National Convention where we,
with tears of joy streaming down our faces and hands clapping to the
beat of our internalized martyr's song, signed a long newsprint petition
(in rainbow colors) asking the Universal House of Justice to lay the
Huquq on us like it did the Persians. Talk about excitement! I loved
it when a Southern States delegate next to me drawled, "I didn't become
no Buh-high to pay no ___ ("f" word) income tax," and walked out. We do
have bits of drama here and there, I guess. --Cal
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-20 00:48:33 UTC
Permalink
Drama yeppers,

Sounded like a crowd waiting for a rock star!

Apparently Ratzinger was a Hitler Youth back in the bad ol' days. He
supposedly was forced to participate.

Verve, we love you ya ya, we love you ya ya, Beatles style.

There are mixed feelings about Ratzingers Papal prospects. Who really knows
though, he may surprise everyone and turn out to be more progressive than
people think, not, lol.

Yours Larry
Brid
2005-04-20 14:10:47 UTC
Permalink
In a television interview I saw some time ago I heard Cardinal
Ratzinger respond to the charge that he was ultra-conservative. He was
in fact a leading light behind the whole movement for reform in the
60s, but denied that he had substantially changed his position. As he
explained it, everyone else had shifted so far that he now appeared
conservative by comparison.

Brid
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 20:56:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
In a television interview I saw some time ago I heard Cardinal
Ratzinger respond to the charge that he was ultra-conservative. He was
in fact a leading light behind the whole movement for reform in the
60s, but denied that he had substantially changed his position. As he
explained it, everyone else had shifted so far that he now appeared
conservative by comparison.
Dear Brid,

That's not how Ratzinger's own colleagues saw the situation. According
to Hans Kung (who originally hired Ratzinger) and my own mentor, Heiko
Oberman, who was also at Tubingen at the time, Ratzinger was very much
a supporter of Vatican II. But in 1968, in reaction to the Marxist
take-over of Tubingen, Ratzinger shifted over the right. Eventually, as
you know, he was responsible for Hans Kung losing his license to teach
Catholic Theology.

warmest, Susan
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-20 17:25:27 UTC
Permalink
Larry,

Everybody was a Hitler youth back in those days. I've pictures of my
wife on her tricycle with the Nazi Flag attached to the handle bars. My
kids love it and wonder about the past.

Has anybody given thought to of what the Baha'i World Flag will look
like when it is designed and meaningfully hangs over the Seat of the
Supreme Tribunal to which Star and Susan will surely be elected? --Cal
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-22 01:19:16 UTC
Permalink
The flag is a red nine pointed star on white silk. However, the flag of
the Supreme Tribunal will most likely be the sacred symbol of Tahirih,
which contains the matrix of all life.

Starr*
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-22 01:31:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
The flag is a red nine pointed star on white silk. However, the flag of
the Supreme Tribunal will most likely be the sacred symbol of
Tahirih,
Post by s***@yahoo.com
which contains the matrix of all life.
Psst. The idea of a Supreme Tribunal is Baha'i, not Babi.
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Who really knows
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
though, he may surprise everyone and turn out to be more progressive than
people think, not, lol.
Larry,

Given the name he took there is one thing progressive he might do;
namely oppose US militarism. Here's the bio on the former Pope that
bore that name. Pope Benedict XV is best known for his strong
denunciation of all the parties to WWI which he called 'the suicide of
Europe.'

warmest, Susan
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 20:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Did I say you were jealous of the Catholic authorities? I said the
drama, the excitement, and the verve. When have you seen drama and
excitement in the Faith?
The last time I saw it was at the Southern Regional Baha'i Conference
in Nashville in 2003.
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-22 00:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Susan,

Really? What happened at the Southern Regional Conference in Nashville
in 2003? --Cal
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Really? What happened at the Southern Regional Conference in
Nashville
Post by Cal E. Rollins
in 2003? --Cal
Just a lot of energy and excitement, Cal and we didn't have to pay a
dime for it. There always is at those conferences. They hold them about
every three years.
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-22 00:55:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Did I say you were jealous of the Catholic authorities? I said the
drama, the excitement, and the verve. When have you seen drama and
excitement in the Faith?
The last time I saw it was at the Southern Regional Baha'i Conference
in Nashville in 2003.
Were the ABMs clad in "Cardinal Red" robes? Did the "pilgrims" outnumber
the residents of the city? Were numerous Heads of State in line to pay
their respects?

Why don't you face facts? You people have neither drama nor excitement in
your lives! How can the Ridvan Rush, the upgrading of clusters or the Five
Year Plan (in all its Stalinist glory) compare to the incantation and
incense of the religion which is, in your exalted opinion, NOT for this age?
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-25 01:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Did I say you were jealous of the Catholic authorities? I said the
drama, the excitement, and the verve. When have you seen drama and
excitement in the Faith?
The last time I saw it was at the Southern Regional Baha'i
Conference
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
in Nashville in 2003.
Were the ABMs clad in "Cardinal Red" robes?
Dermod,

That maybe what you find exciting but not me!

Did the "pilgrims" outnumber
Post by Finnegan's Wake
the residents of the city?
Nope. We just filled up the big hotels.

And there was lots of hand-clapping, foot-stomping and gospel singing.

I saw a bit of hand-clapping at the Vatican, but they seemed to have
missed out on the gospel singing entirely.

Probably not such a good idea at a funeral anyhow.
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-25 02:18:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Were the ABMs clad in "Cardinal Red" robes?
Dermod,
That maybe what you find exciting but not me!
Nah! I got over that at age 6 when I got to sit on the Cardinal Archbisbop
of Armagh's throne.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Did the "pilgrims" outnumber
Post by Finnegan's Wake
the residents of the city?
Nope. We just filled up the big hotels.
A truly middle-class affair!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
And there was lots of hand-clapping, foot-stomping and gospel singing.
I saw a bit of hand-clapping at the Vatican, but they seemed to have
missed out on the gospel singing entirely.
Yes! They have an entirely different type of singing ... which would suit
you Bahais as it's much more "dignified." And BTW it wasn't hand-clapping -
it was "applause!" Do let me know if you don't know the difference.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Probably not such a good idea at a funeral anyhow.
But then you've never been to an Irish funeral. Trust me - you haven't
lived until you've been to an Irish funeral ... not your own, obviously,
but, at least you know the kind of send-off you're going to get!
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-25 06:19:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Nope. We just filled up the big hotels.
A truly middle-class affair!
Naah, you can either crowd them in four to a room or go on priceline
like I did and get the Sheraton at $42 a night. That was before the
conference took over that hotel as well, but I reserved mine well in
advance knowing this would happen.
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
I saw a bit of hand-clapping at the Vatican, but they seemed to have
missed out on the gospel singing entirely.
Yes! They have an entirely different type of singing ... which would suit
you Bahais as it's much more "dignified."
This is the South. That means when Bob Henderson calls out "God is
good" we all shout back, "All the time!"

And BTW it wasn't hand-clapping -
Post by Finnegan's Wake
it was "applause!"
How boring.
Post by Finnegan's Wake
But then you've never been to an Irish funeral.
Well, uh Baha'is aren't allowed to have that much fun.
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-26 12:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Naah, you can either crowd them in four to a room or go on priceline
like I did and get the Sheraton at $42 a night. That was before the
conference took over that hotel as well, but I reserved mine well in
advance knowing this would happen.
On the ball, as ever!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
I saw a bit of hand-clapping at the Vatican, but they seemed to
have
Post by Finnegan's Wake
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
missed out on the gospel singing entirely.
Yes! They have an entirely different type of singing ... which would
suit
Post by Finnegan's Wake
you Bahais as it's much more "dignified."
This is the South. That means when Bob Henderson calls out "God is
good" we all shout back, "All the time!"
Ah! This is "unity" in action.
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
And BTW it wasn't hand-clapping -
Post by Finnegan's Wake
it was "applause!"
How boring.
Indeed ... but respectful, which, I understand, was the point of it!
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Finnegan's Wake
But then you've never been to an Irish funeral.
Well, uh Baha'is aren't allowed to have that much fun.
We had noticed what a truly miserable, joyless bunch of bores you are!
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-25 18:36:21 UTC
Permalink
Susan,

All that good stuff was going on at the Nashville Conference? How many
whites were in attendance? I thought the American Faith was trying to
stomp out black religious enthusiasm and response to the Greatest Name.
Just goes to show how rumors aren't necessarily true. Hallelujah and
Aleluja, too! --Cal
Steve Marshall
2005-04-25 23:09:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cal E. Rollins
I thought the American Faith was trying to
stomp out black religious enthusiasm and response to the Greatest Name.
Did you have any evidence of this, or was it just a feeling?
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Just goes to show how rumors aren't necessarily true.
Wow, some rumours may not be true! I'm going to have to revise my
world-view quite radically if that's the case. :-)
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-26 17:59:49 UTC
Permalink
Steve,

You obviously know nothing of the South Carolina debacle and seeming
failure to even ask such a stupid question. The greatest evidence of
something gone awry is the failure of the promised ground-swell of black
believers in America and subsequent entry-by-troops of white people
after the groundswell. (See the Guardian's pilgrim's notes.) Did you
talk with Dr. Ruhe on your pilgrimage as I did and as did my wife when
he stimulated our groups in our belief that South Carolina was to be the
first American Baha'i State and Akka the first Baha'i owned whatever?

Since you're not black or American you haven't a word to say about what
is rumor in these parts. You've got enough to figure out what's factual
in your own neck of the woods, so kindly keep your two pence worth to
yourself, thank you very much. If you've got a quarter's worth it might
be worth hearing.

Now what was I saying...? --Cal
Steve Marshall
2005-04-27 03:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Steve,
<various ad-homs snipped>
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Now what was I saying...? --Cal
Beats me.
Finnegan's Wake
2005-04-27 03:53:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Marshall
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Steve,
<various ad-homs snipped>
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Now what was I saying...? --Cal
Beats me.
Is that not what your wife is supposed to do?
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-27 04:31:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cal E. Rollins
Steve,
You obviously know nothing of the South Carolina debacle and seeming
failure to even ask such a stupid question. The greatest evidence of
something gone awry is the failure of the promised ground-swell of black
believers in America
The debacle in South Carolina was because we knew how to enroll blacks
into the Faith but we didn't know how to keep them. Ruhi represents an
attempt to remedy that problem. We'll see if it works. I understand
that the Columbia area is now an "A" cluster which means mass teaching
projects should be planned there soon.
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-27 18:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Susan,

Columbia is soon to have mass teaching again? Maybe if we put it off
another decade all those 30,000 who were the result of our old mass
teaching will have died off and their grandchildren have forgotten our
failure. And we can have a fresh start in re-saving souls for
Baha'u'llah. Right? --Cal
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-27 23:23:16 UTC
Permalink
Cal

I know some writings which should be translated into Spanish. Some of
them could be put to music and blasted over the air waves.

If you want to lose your life and soul
Make being a baha'i your goal

The kind of unity you will get
Will make your fret and sweat

You can give all your money and bread
Til you are in the grave completely dead

So if you want to lose your life and soul
Make being baha'i your goal!

No luz easta aqui por todas la gente
Siempre loco in la cabeza!

Estrella*
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-27 23:24:33 UTC
Permalink
I know of some writings which need to be translated into Spanish real
fast and maybe put to music for the Columian air waves.

If you want to lose your life and soul
Make being baha'i your goal
The kind of unity you get
Will make you fret and sweat
Then you can give all your money and bread
Until you are completely dead
So if you want to lose your life and soul
Make being baha'i your goal!

No luz esta aqui por todas gente
siempre, loco in la cabeza!

Estrella*
Steve Marshall
2005-04-28 00:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@yahoo.com
and maybe put to music for the Columian air waves
Yes, the airwaves on Planet Columia are just crying out for Spanish
music. That airless world desperately needs some atmosphere.

Columian resident, Colin Bine, wearing a t-shirt printed with "Columia
is but one Crappy Place" said yesterday, "Our Prophetess, Starr*,
promised to do a major make-over on our world. I think she's with a
reality TV crew. They've got a black retired guy who is a musician and
a white guy who says he's black, but doesn't look anything like
Michael Jackson. Anyway, our planet is going to get itself its first
radio station, so we're busy evolving hearing, or FM radio receptivity
-- whichever comnes first. I can't wait to listen to my first Susana
Baca song."
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-28 19:06:59 UTC
Permalink
Time for the 'great reversal' -

Starr* says:
C'mon - try and be smart
Starr* says:
put sound amplifiers on your heart.
Starr* says:
Don't act like you are dead
Now stand on your head

Now for those who are left

Starr* says:
Get out of the haze
Starr* says:
Lift thou thy gaze!
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-27 04:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brid
Susan,
All that good stuff was going on at the Nashville Conference? How many
whites were in attendance?
I'm not sure. There were lots and lots of Persians, but the atmosphere
was pure Southern and largely African-American Southern at that. A ton
of youth activities. My son wouldn't come back to the hotel room until
3 or 4 in the morning.

I thought the American Faith was trying to
Post by Brid
stomp out black religious enthusiasm and response to the Greatest Name.
Not where I come from!
Steve Marshall
2005-04-27 08:10:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
A ton
of youth activities. My son wouldn't come back to the hotel room until
3 or 4 in the morning.
At what hour did the official youth activities end?
And was he a bit sheepish when he returned to the hotel rom?

ka kite
Steve
Who is probably showing a projection bias
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-27 12:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Marshall
At what hour did the official youth activities end?
And was he a bit sheepish when he returned to the hotel rom?
LOL. There was no official end to youth activities. They would have a
coffee house beginning about midnight! But he did have his cell phone
and I checked up on him occasionally. I didn't hear any baahing in the
background. Besides, he was just a kid. (no pun intended)
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-27 18:23:40 UTC
Permalink
Steve,

Well she sounds like a wonderfully naive Baha'i parent. Of course, all
of our deepening projects and institutes may have worked over the
decades and America Baha'i youth really act better than Persian youth at
conferences. Aleluja on that score--if true! --Cal
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-27 21:33:52 UTC
Permalink
Cal

I know some writings which should be translated into Spanish. Some of
them could be put to music and blasted over the air waves.

If you want to lose your life and soul
Make being a baha'i your goal

The kind of unity you will get
Will make your fret and sweat

You can give all your money and bread
Til you are in the grave completely dead

So if you want to lose your life and soul
Make being baha'i your goal!

No luz easta aqui por todas la gente
Siempre loco in la cabeza!

Estrella*
Steve Marshall
2005-04-27 23:23:11 UTC
Permalink
***@yahoo.com wrote:

Steve's provisional translation of the Portuguese (or Spanish, or
Post by s***@yahoo.com
No luz easta aqui por todas la gente
Siempre loco in la cabeza!
You can still celebrate Easter, you can still be a gentile
Go crazy in Baha'i!
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-27 23:12:40 UTC
Permalink
Star,

Es verdad! --Cal
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-27 18:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Susan,

Yes. Well it obviously had to be lots of African Americans in
Nashville, because I'd be wonderfully surprised if a significant number
of white Baha'is could appreciate clapping, singing, and having a good
time at a Baha'i conference and feel such was appropriate behaviour. As
my old jazz friend used to say "That's what I like about the South." It
used to have a great deal of Baha'i promise as well as fulfillment.
--Cal
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-19 23:46:57 UTC
Permalink
What does the name ratzinger mean?

Sounds like ratz-in-her Holy Dispensation as a man clad in transvestite
garb trys to mimic the real thing! This is no more than the ancient
freemasory continuance of war on women striving to become the creating
principle on earth.

I can see dear ol Cal dressed in the red robe parading around in his
San Fran tower dramatizing the whole thing and scaring the heck out of
his cats as he trys to get them to kiss in ring. The long distance
visual he has to Brid's place he has on his mammon TV screen reminds us
of The Crying Game as the excitement of the drama takes on a life of
its own. What kind of smoke will be set off when they both lay the
robes aside? I can't wait for the next scene!

Starr*
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-20 17:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Star,

Sorry. Parading around in a red robe in my tower would hardly mean
much. Besides, I wear my black and silver one for ample
meaninglessness.

However, I'd love to wear a red one at the Vatican as a symbol of my
elevation to the College of Cardinals. If I believed in reincarnation,
I'd want to come back as a young priest with the knowledge I now have
and with a lust for leadership. Man, would that be fun! I can assure
you I'd be of Medici quality and make Catherine and her sibilings and
relatives look like Snow White and her nine dwarfs.

I'd have Machiavelli down to a "t" and make the appellation of St. Cal
given to me by Nima shine. But, alas, I'm one of those he so aptly
describes as being caught up in the net of Baha'i beliefs. Would that I
could read the Languages of Revelation, however, so that I could have
the assurance that I know what I believe. --Cal
s***@yahoo.com
2005-04-20 23:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Hey Cal - For all we know you could be the alter personality of
Ratzinger and you are already fufilling your dreams. As far as knowing
what you believe is what Wahid's 19 Commandments say that's the true
way of it.

She

In the name of God the Sublime, the Most Holy!

Praises and glory be to Her, the eternally Hidden and eternally
Manifest radiant and illuminating Treasure of being and existence, who
from the divine wellsprings hath once more opened the Siniatic
repositories of revelation from the singular voice of the illuminating
Burning Bush of power, might and glory with the fingers of the light of
the living love and made the human temple once more the perfect
existential mirror for Her divine guidance whereby She tought one
ravished intoxicated servant from the
eternal spiritual vistas of angelic exposition that which he knew not.
Verily in Her desire to be known within the inner recesses of the
selves of all Her creation, in this day the Houri hath indeed uttered
the shrill cry that hath sent the concourses above into a swoon and
revealed 19 commandments that perchance Her servants, one and all, may
live in love, peace, harmony, amity, equity, freedom and justice with
themselves, their Lord and their fellow creatures forevermore and that
also perchance this earth itself may be transformed back into the
paradise of Eden and a
blossoming garden of multifariously coloured flowers of truth, wisdom,
light, gnoses and freedom at it is in heaven! Her commandments in this
new Aeon, which have been eternal verities known in the past, are,


Know thyself!

She/he who knows their self knows their Lord! For, know, ye all are,
all of you, the manifestations of My light and the fruits of My being,
so look within you and you shall find Me standing within thee manifest,
luminous, mighty, splendorous, powerful, self-subsisting and
resplendent. Therefore the only true point of adoration (qiblah) is in
your own heart (which is Me) not elsewhere, so turn to it!

Always follow what your own inner light and what the truth within tells
you and not what your neighbour, preacher, rabbi, priest, minister,
mullah, shaykh, guru, institution or politician tells you to think and
do.

Always above all to thine own self be true and as the day follows the
night thou canst not be false to any person.

Do not fear anything. Fear and fear alone is the root of all evil and
the negation of love, truth, freedom and all good besides.

Love thyself first and truly then can you love thy neighbour.

Strive to be fair, truthful, honest and just in all circumstances!

Think good thoughts, utter good words and commit good things, for it is
in your intentions whereby the good or the bad become manifest, and in
the end you reap what you sow, because such is My eternal law of cause
and effect (karma), so always search your intentions first before
thinking, saying and doing!

Be detached and content with what you already possess and take your
eyes askance from coveting your neighbour's possessions. But with what
you already possesses you should always strive for the betterment of
yourselves and those around you in all things and circumstances.

Do not descend into superficiality and shape your life exclusively by
the passing and ephemeral standards, fashions, contingencies and trends
of popular culture, but be modest and follow a balance.

Do not be sheep amongst society but rather be leaders the light of
whose mind and spirit always shines resplendent like a torch in the
darkness.

Thou shalt not follow thy neighbour in his trends and habits, for if
truly they have something other than of eternal value to offer indeed
they would follow thee, not ye them.

My eternal covenant with thee is My love and My love alone, and from
love follows justice; from justice follows truth; from truth follows
freedom, and only then can there be true unity in diversity, as every
atom of My creation is so many manifestations of the various names and
attributes of My Self mirroring Me, my various faces turned towards
you, for whichsoever place you turn is My Face, so love that ye may
truly be free!

Thou shalt not found any more creeds, sects and religious organizations
that claim exclusivity over my Name, My truths or My eternal verities.
For blessed is the spot, and the house, and the place, and the city,
and the heart, and the mountain, and the refuge, and the cave, and the
valley, and the land, and the sea, and the ocean, and the island, and
the meadow, and the forest and the jungle, and the garden, and the
country, and the church,
and the mosque, and the synagogue, and the temple, and the cloister,
and the caravan, and the reservation, and the hospice, and the ashram,
and the khananqah, and the feast, and the workshop, everywhere and
anywhere where My mention hath been made, by whatever name and
indication, and My praise glorified; for I have inspired My wise ones
many times before to teach you
that I have many Names and am indicated by many indications and even in
the worship of images, the stones and the idols am I to be found. My
only religion to you is love and love alone.

Thou shalt not found any more governments and states in My Name
oppressing in My name for political purposes of worldly and material
gain, for what need have I, or have I ever had, for your ephemeral
governments and statecraft which always eventually pass into dust. I Am
that I Am and no government or political agenda can ever encompass My
vastness, nor is there
any need to, for I am existent in all things, present in all forms of
belief, including even atheism. Split a piece of wood and I am there;
lift up the rock and you shall finding Me Standing, and I doeth what I
willeth regardless of what those with theocratic pretensions
illegitimately seek to do in My name. Therefore, know that any group or
persons wishing to establish a theocracy are seeking one after their
own selfish and base desires to control and oppress others by their own
fear and false imaginings. Seek ye however to found instead a universal
theophanocracy of
light (the rule of the theophanies of my being which you all are)
within existing frameworks of secular democratic societies, for such is
the best and most worthy form of government for you, guaranteeing your
rights and freedoms and those of others, and one truly reflective of
the freedom of the Spirit itself.

Seek to be a true friend to all nations, colours, creeds, beliefs,
persuasions, preferences, for they are all various hues and loci of My
manifestation, and the various fruits of the tree of existence. For
just as there is no inner difference between woman and man, also there
is no difference between your colours, creeds, beliefs, persuasions and
preferences other than in your own perspectives!

Seek always to take care of the children, the infirm, the sick, the
homeless, the destitute, and the elderly, even if you must sacrifice
much from yourselves in so doing, for those in need are in all
circumstances My face mirroring Me and a test to you for your own
advancement, betterment and realization, would ye but know it!

Take care of the earth and the creatures under her in all circumstances
and contingencies, and always be in balance with her, and do not allow
her to be ravaged any more by the ravenous beasts of corporation and
selfish profit mongering, for nature and the earth is My sacred trust
to you and the most wondrous locus of My manifestation, as I am above
all the Mother, both in your world and throughout all the realms of
existence.

Know that peace without justice is appeasement and encouragement of the
tyrant in continuation of his tyranny. Strive ye always therefore in
all your endeavours to render all their just and equitous due, for
without justice true peace is not possible, and without true peace true
unity is not possible. This is the balance, this is the balance, this
indeed is the balance!

Thus She saith, the Lord Most High!

And verily we are all from Her and to Her we shall all indeed return
completed!


Wahid Azal
November 10, 2002
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-22 03:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Ratzinger Joke

Karl Rahner, Hans Kung and Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger all die on the same
day, and go to meet St. Peter to know their fate.

St. Peter approaches the three of them, and tells them that he will
interview each of them to discuss their views on various issues.

He then points at Rahner and says "Karl! In my office..." After 4 hours, the
door opens, and Rahner comes stumbling out of St. Peter's office. He is
highly distraught, and is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the hardest
thing I've ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never
knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of Our God.

St. Peter follows him out, and sticks his finger in Kung's direction and
"Hans! You're next..." After 8 hours, the door opens, and Kung comes out,
barely able to stand. He is near collapse with weakness and a crushed
spirit. He , too, is mumbling things like "Oh God, that was the hardest
thing I've ever done! How could I have been so wrong! So sorry...never
knew..." He stumbles off into Heaven, a testament to the mercy of Our God.

Lastly, St. Peter, emerging from his office, says to Cardinal Ratzinger,
"Joseph, your turn." TWELVE HOURS LATER, St. Peter stumbles out the door,
apparently exhausted, saying "Oh God, that's the hardest thing I've ever
done..."
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-21 04:21:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
Looks like Senex religionists will be firmly in control in the
Vatican for
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
the foreseeable future. No condoms for all those Catholics who live in
countries with AIDS
You presume Catholics actually do what the Pope says. Two-thirds of the
Catholics in America practice some form of birth control forbidden by
the church.
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
Ratzinger undoubtedly has his list of undesirable liberal-Puer Aeternus
Catholics that he will begin to purge from the Catholic Faith now that he's
God's regent on earth.
He did that while he was Grand Inquisitor, remember?
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
The members of Universal House of Justice and Ratzinger should get along
just fine seeing that They are of the same mind-set.
Au contraire. The Universal House of Justice has no problem whatsoever
with your wearing a condom.

warmest, Susan
PaulHammond
2005-04-21 19:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
The members of Universal House of Justice and Ratzinger should get
along
Post by Heather Carr-Rowe
just fine seeing that They are of the same mind-set.
Au contraire. The Universal House of Justice has no problem
whatsoever
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
with your wearing a condom.
warmest, Susan
Probably best not to wear it under your pants, however...

Paul
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-21 20:26:54 UTC
Permalink
"Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger is WAS head of the Catholic Church's Congregation
for the Doctrine of the Faith, whose mission is to "to promote and safeguard
the doctrine on the faith and morals throughout the Catholic world" (John
Paul II).


As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome, Ratzinger keeps KEPT himself busy in
service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting
theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it may rear its ugly head --
and, consequently, had received somewhat of a notorious reputation among the
liberal media and 'enlightened' intelligentsia of pseudo-Catholic
universities.

However, there are those among us who have delved beyond the polemics of his
critics, who in familiarizing ourselves with his works have come to admire
him both as brilliant Catholic theologian but also as a man whose faith,
honesty, integrity, and unswerving devotion to the Truth is readily
apparent."

From: http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/

Mmmm. Surprising just how much conservative 'orthodox' Catholics echo
conservative 'orthodox' Baha'i's or perhaps it's the other way around! Same
old, same old, by the same old Senex religionists, regardless of their
religious affiliation.

I thought the Baha'i Faith was to be categorically different from preceding
religions, it hardly differs one iota!

Yours Larry
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-21 21:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Some Reflections on the Recent Papacy of JPII

By Rev. Dr. Matthew Fox


While the media responds profousely to the telegenic pope who has just
passed, and while he accomplished some good things such as taking a stand
against the Iraq war and against capital punishment and against the idolatry
of consumerism, I really do believe that history will not be kind to this
papacy. This pope and his self-appointed German mafia headed by Cardinal
Ratzinger will have to face the judgement of history (and very likely God
also) over issues that include but are not limited to the following:

A pre-occupation with morality as sexual issues even when this morality is
deeply flawed. I include the following examples:
--The forbidding of one billion Catholics world wide to practice birth
control even while the human population explodes at the seams.
--The forbidding of the use of condoms even in a time when AIDS is killing
individuals and whole populations the world over.
--The head-long pursuit of Augustine's theology of sexuality (all sex must
be legitimized by having children)
--Ugly attacks in the pope's name against homosexuals and the complete
ignoring of what science and professional psychological associations have
learned about homosexuality (for example, that it is a natural phenomenon
for 8-10% of any given human population as well as over 460 non-human
species).

Other attacks include documents against yoga (yes!); against Buddhism
(calling it "atheism"); against Thich Naht Hahn (calling him the
"anti-Christ"); against feminist philosophers; against women (girls cannot
serve at the altar; nor can women be priests); against theologians in
general. Priests are forbidden to use the pronoun "she" for God at the
altar.

A prolonged effort to render fascism fashionable. This includes the rushing
into canonization of the card-carrying fascist priest who founded the Opus
Dei movement even though this man actually praised Adolf Hitler and also
denounced women and has been accused of sexual abuse of six young men who
are alive today.

The taking of Opus Dei under the hand of the papacy granting it legitimacy
and power within and without the Catholic structure.

The conscious destruction and systemic dismanteling of the Liberation
Theology movement and the very vital base communities it spawned in Latin
America in particular--a move which has opened up Latin America to an
onslaught of Pentecostal and right wing religious huckstering. The demise of
the Catholic Church in Latin America is now well underway--pentecostals are
sweeping away the population--now that this papacy (with the encouragment
and support of the CIA) has destroyed liberation theology and replaced it
with opus dei bishops and cardinals.

The effort to eliminate theology and replace it with ideology by spreading
fear among theologians. The expulsion from the priesthood of three prominent
theologians on three continents in the 1990's sent fear into the ranks of
theological thinkers since. Those 3 theologians are Leonardo Boff from Latin
America; Father Eugene Dreuermann from Germany; and myself in North America.

The sorry appointment of ideological Yes Men as bishops and cardinals and
with it the scandalous pedophile priest situation where the scandal is less
about individual priest's crimes than about the cover-up of these crimes by
churchmen who, lacking either moral integrity or intellectual smarts, moved
these criminals from parish to parish and from diocese to diocese. (One
legal commentator points to a Vatican document on dealing with pedophile
priests as "an international conspiracy to obstruct justice.") Three close
bishop friends of this pope in Europe were themselves forced to resign for
sexual misconduct.

Even more curious, is the elevation of one key American churchman, Cardinal
Law, head of the Boston archdiocese where the U.S. pedophile scandal first
went public, to a plum parish assignment in Rome this past year.

The rigid sticking to celibacy as a requisite for being a priest (as well as
the requisite of having exclusively male genitals) means fewer and fewer
Catholics have access to the sacraments and fewer and fewer persons are
drawn to study for the priesthood. The attendance at Mass on Sundays in San
Francisco alone has plummeted 70% during this pope's reign.
As a result of his policies the demise of the number of practicing Catholics
in the Northern countries including Ireland and United States continues
unabated. In a few years 2/3 of parishes in Germany will have no pastors and
no Eucharistic celebration. Already, 1400 priests in Germany are from
outside the country and the number of new priests ordained there has dropped
from 366 in 1990 to 161 today. The average priest world wide is over 60
years of age.

The obstruction of Ecumenism and Interfaith to the point that most
Protestant bodies have, in the words of a key player in Canada, "given up a
long time ago" on the Catholic Church supporting ecumenism.

The raising of the papacy to a 'cult of personality' aided and abetted by
the fawning media.

Speaking of the fawning media, this papacy granted a "man of conscience"
award to Rupert Murdoch (who, the year after he got the award, divorced his
wife of many years to marry a young woman).

The Holy Spirit is far smarter and forward looking than any papacy and thus
this destruction of Catholicism's past may well be the Spirit's way of
creating a flatter playing field for Deep Ecumenism and Interfaith in the
future. Meanwhile, though, many good Catholics are deeply hurt and alienated
from their church--there are a lot more recovering than practicing catholics
out there--and little leadership appears on the horizon since this pope's
appointments and policies have stifled so much talent and blockaded so much
potential for intelligent faith.

When I think of this pope I think of a hard-working priest who came to see
me a year ago from southern California. He cried as he told me how ALL of
the budget for the ministry to the poor was being cut to pay for a big new
cathedral and for priestly misconduct. He himself was close to leaving the
priesthood. I think of another priest who came to me three years ago and who
was the person who actually ran his entire diocese on behalf of his bishop.
He was at his wit's end with the hypocrisy and lies emanating from Rome--he
knew many secrets. Rather than leave and rather than play the game, he quit
his position and diocese and found a ministerial position in another diocese
thousands of miles away.

Now that this pope has passed, let readers reflect on the seriousness of
these matters. And pray for this pope. I for one would hate to have to face
my Creator with a track record like this one.

Copyright 2005 Matthew Fox
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-21 21:12:57 UTC
Permalink
On Ratzinger, the New Pope Benedict XVI ; Ratzinger

by Matthew Fox

www.OpEdNews.com

(Matthew will be on Chris Matthews tonight at 7:30 PM 4/19/05)

Why should we be surprised that the current Catholic hierarchy, who elevated
Cardinal Law the poster boy for pedophile clergy, to a special place of
power in Rome, has just elected Cardinal Ratzinger as pope? The "Yes Men"
of Pope John Paul II's church have chosen one of their own who is guaranteed
to play the Punitive Father.

Now we have the Inquisitor General of the 21st century, who led the assault
on theologians and women, yoga ("dangerous" because it gets you too much in
touch with your body), homosexuals (who are "evil"), liberation theology,
ecumenism and interfaith, made "spiritual head" of 1.1 billion people.

Cardinal Ratzinger is living proof of the dictum coined by Catholic
historian Lord Acton after the First Vatican Council's declaration of papal
infallibility when he said "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely." Ratzinger, far from supporting movements of justice, has
committed his career to silencing those who have and elevating the rich and
powerful, such as Escriva, fascist sympathizer and founder of opus dei, to
sainthood. It is a sad day and a decisive one for the Roman Catholic
Church.

Dr. Matthew Fox, Wisdom University Author Original Blessing
www.wisdomuniversity.org

This article, is also by Matthew Fox

Opus Dei Sunday

(written in 2002 when Pope John Paul II canonized Escriva)

Matthew Fox, PhD

Opus Dei is a "personal prelature" approved by the Vatican and founded in
1928. The recent canonization in October, 2002, of its founder, Josemaria
Escriva de Balaguer, rushed through in record time of twenty-four years, is
the 800 pound gorilla now sauntering through the palatial halls of the
Vatican. It is in the open. This Emperor is without clothes. The naked
agenda of this papacy is staring us all in the face and it is not pretty.
The media, the religious pundits, the priests, bishops, provincials and
cardinals, can no longer hide in denial mouthing pious shibboleths of "wait
for the next pope" or "this pope is conservative."

Was Hitler conservative? (The man they just rushed into canonization is on
record as praising Hitler-for his "stopping communism.") Was Mussolini
conservative? Or Franco? (The man they just canonized admired Franco so
much-and vice versa--that several of his opus dei members were on Franco's
cabinet and Franco's special attentions gave them access to higher education
and much financial support.) These people are not conservatives! (Any
self-respecting conservative should rise up and shout about this. Where is
George Will when we need him?) These people are ideologues. This has been
the agenda all along of Cardinal Ratzinger and others running the German
mafia in the Vatican these days: To dismantle Vatican II and replace all
theological debate with ideology.

The expulsion of theologians-I think of Leonardo Boff in Latin America and
Eugene Drewermann in Germany and myself in North America-this happened all
the same year-was a necessary step in this triumph of ideology. Silencing
and expulsions spread fear instead of creative thinking among future
theologians.

Theology has succumbed to ideology in one of the great religious traditions
of the West. The Roman Catholic tradition has boasted many beautiful and
powerful theological and saintly souls through the centuries. This is a
very sad moment. And scary. Where are the Roman Catholic Universities and
college presidents and college faculty speaking out about this latest
scandal? (Actually, the current Vatican imposed oaths upon Catholic college
teachers not to speak their consciences.) Ideology is staring out in all
its ugliness for all to see. To see and weep.

The ideology of opus dei is an ideology of men only. Of an all-patriachal
God. Of obedience first and last. Of the punitive father. Thus it fits
perfectly with the nature or right wing fundamentalism which always boasts
those elements.

Opus dei is an ideology of secrecy as well. (Its most famous member in the
United States is Robert Hammens, the FBI agent who was recently convicted as
the most effective and traitorous spy in American history. When caught, his
opus dei spiritual director asked the government to simply reprimand him.)
The opus dei ideology includes celibates and non-celibates who consider
self-flagellation to be a bona fide spiritual practice and who pronounce
pruriently on the sexual lives of lay people (no birth control or condoms)
and for homosexuals no love-making, for clergy no women or married people.
Covering up transgressions in an all male clerical fraternity is allowed so
long as they do not 'rock the boat' by telling the truth. So long as one is
obedient, all is forgiven (even pedophilia). In fact, if you are a cardinal
who ushered pedophile priests from parish to parish and diocese to diocese
you might be rewarded as Cardinal Law was recently with a choice plum of an
historic church in Rome itself.

Opus dei is deeply embedded in the banking circles of Europe (they just
bought a $42 million building in New York City) and the media in the United
States and bishops and cardinals drawn from the organization are fast
replacing hierarchy who had a justice orientation in Latin America. The
Cardinal of Peru is Opus Dei and he strongly supported the fascist regime
there. It has been called a "cult" and a "sect" by persons who have tried
to escape from it.

I know one opus dei member in Latin America who forbade his son to ever be
at home alone with his mother or sister, forcing him to live on the streets
from the age of eight until 8 at night when his father came home from work
(in the police force). He also demanded that the family pray the family
rosary kneeling on bottle caps so that they would bleed (especially the
children).

It is clear from this rush to canonization of a fascist that the cover up of
pedophile priests is only the tip of the iceberg of this, the most corrupt
and ideologically driven papacy since the Borgias. Its true colors were
revealed on Opus Dei Sunday, October 6, 2002. They are not pretty. Angels
were not rejoicing when fascists gathered in St. Peter's square. Canonizing
an admirer of Hitler is hardly a sign of holiness in the church. Escriva
said: "Hitler against the Jews, Hitler against the Slavonics, this means
Hitler against communism." Every serious believer must look elsewhere for
holiness than to the institutional church. Look inside oneself. Look
inside creation. Look inside all teachings from all wisdom traditions. But
it is hard to imagine looking inside the church hierarchy as it is now
constituted.

The Catholic Church as we know it is dead. It is rotten from the inside.
It is poisoned by evil forces of fascist ideologies who have taken it over
and who teach that "the fuhrer is always right," i.e. infallible and who
have, with the media's cheerleading, developed a personality cult around the
papal office. I do not believe there is any room left in the Roman Catholic
Church for thinking people or people with a conscience of justice to remain
there without standing up, speaking out or just plain leaving. The ship of
Peter is rotten to the core. New versions of church await us.

The author is author of twenty-five books and is an Episcopal priest and
professor of spirituality at Wisdom University (formerly University of
Creation Spirituality)
Cal E. Rollins
2005-04-22 00:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Larry,

I've not seen where we were told the Baha'i Faith differed from other
religions. Why did you think this? Was it just wishful thinking, or
what? When I read it represented the changeless face of God, I knew from
what I'd read of the past religions it was the same stuff with a new
name and upgraded somewhat for new times. --Cal
Heather Carr-Rowe
2005-04-22 03:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Dear Cal,

This Day eclipses all other Days,because in this Day, perhaps, humanity
will grow up enough to awaken to the fact, to the truth, that they are "as
one soul and one body".

"He Who is your Lord, the All-Merciful, cherisheth in His heart the desire
of beholding the entire human race as one soul and one body. Haste ye to win
your share of God's good grace and mercy in this Day that eclipseth all
other created Days. How great the felicity that awaiteth the man that
forsaketh all he hath in a desire to obtain the things of God! Such a man,
We testify, is among God's blessed ones."

(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 213)

"Set your faces towards Him on this Day which God hath exalted above all
other days, and whereon the All-Merciful hath shed the splendour of His
effulgent glory upon all who are in heaven and all who are on earth."

(Baha'u'llah, The Summons of the Lord of Hosts, p. 68)

There is only us, we are them, 'as one soul'.

Yours Larry
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-21 06:31:12 UTC
Permalink
I hear that Joseph Ratzinger is on record for snubbing baha'ism.

W
PaulHammond
2005-04-21 19:18:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
I hear that Joseph Ratzinger is on record for snubbing baha'ism.
W
Is that what you were trying when you failed to turn up
as arranged - "name the time and place", remember?

You were a Holy cluck cluck Chicken no-show.

Dubya "snub" Hazini.

Palu, the victor.
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-22 03:12:49 UTC
Permalink
I turned up as arranged, limey ponce. It is you who chickened out.
Palu, the scared shitless.
PaulHammond
2005-04-22 23:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
I turned up as arranged, limey ponce. It is you who chickened out.
WHERE DID YOU YOU TURN UP (cf Eyes passim)???!?!???!

I was at work that day, just exactly like I said I would be
after you said "name the time and the place".

You did not come to Peterborough on the 2nd of January,
nor did you darken the doors of my former place of work,
the Brewery Tap, 80 Westgate, just across the road from
the train station, a mere 45 minutes and £21.70 from
London Kings Cross station (See
http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/planmyjourney/Time_Table/Display_Matrix.asp?expand=&T2ID=8164_2005421155915
for details)

You were a NO SHOW cluck cluck cluck HOLY CHICKEN.

Palu, the victor by default

(repost attached for about the third time in the last week.

Try actually READING it this time, prat)

--repost, originally on 24/1/2005---

Nima,

Here is the arrangement we made:

You said (on 30th Dec at 12:32 am)

"I will be in London in 3 days time. Put up, or shut up! As simple as
that, limey ponce. Like I said, you are sacred out of your wits to
meet
me face to face. Name a time and place."


http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/msg/90bc569aca71738f?dmode=source

My response, (30th Dec at 12:24 pm)

"Cluck, cluck, cluck, Holy Chicken!
I'm at work that day. 12 till 5. See you there."

was made here

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.religion.bahai/msg/4f222a8ef567577d?dmode=source

I reminded you several times over the next couple of days
that I was referring to Sunday, 2nd January (3 days time, like you
said).

Now, I WAS at work that day (and I can prove it)

So tell me. WHERE exactly did you wait? (Or were you staying
at home pissing in your pants?)

Palu, the "thrice destroyed" Holy Chicken baster.
Abraxas
2005-04-23 03:04:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
WHERE DID YOU YOU TURN UP (cf Eyes passim)???!?!???!
L O N D O N ! ! !
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-23 04:50:24 UTC
Permalink
WHERE DID YOU YOU TURN UP (cf Eyes passim)???!?!???!>
Don't you get it, Paul? If he was anywhere in London he 'showed up'
even if he was hiding somewhere in the underground.

You were supposed to leave your pub and hunt him down.
PaulHammond
2005-04-23 10:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by s***@jam.rr.com
WHERE DID YOU YOU TURN UP (cf Eyes passim)???!?!???!>
Don't you get it, Paul? If he was anywhere in London he 'showed up'
even if he was hiding somewhere in the underground.
You were supposed to leave your pub and hunt him down.
Ah, I see.

I think I pretty well already covered the fact that I wasn't
going to take a day off work and take the train to London
just for the pleasure of handing him his hide.

I suppose he had locked himself in the bathroom of whoever
he was staying with so that he had easy access for when
his fear of the fighting prowess of the average mathematician
got the better of him...

cluck, cluck, cluck, Holy Chicken!

Palu, the victor by default.
w***@gmail.com
2005-04-24 02:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
take the train to London
just for the pleasure of handing him his hide
Only in your dreams, palu. If you and I ever meet, I guarantee you, you
will be on the first shuttle to the Abha kingdom.

W
PaulHammond
2005-04-24 13:51:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by w***@gmail.com
Post by PaulHammond
take the train to London
just for the pleasure of handing him his hide
Only in your dreams, palu. If you and I ever meet, I guarantee you, you
will be on the first shuttle to the Abha kingdom.
W
So, Holy Chicken, is it true, as I said that

... he had locked himself in the bathroom of whoever
he was staying with so that he had easy access for when
his fear of the fighting prowess of the average mathematician
got the better of him...

cluck, cluck, cluck, Holy Chicken!

Palu, the victor by default.
Steve Marshall
2005-04-24 22:14:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
... he had locked himself in the bathroom of whoever
he was staying with so that he had easy access for when
his fear of the fighting prowess of the average mathematician
got the better of him...
Only a mean mathematician would say that.

True enough, though. And isn't that the point at which Nima changed
his name to Wahid?
s***@jam.rr.com
2005-04-25 06:35:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Marshall
True enough, though. And isn't that the point at which Nima changed
his name to Wahid?
Hey, wahid is better than nime.
Abraxas
2005-04-27 02:30:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by PaulHammond
prowess of the average mathematician
Who could only ever get a job in a pub. Some prowess.
PaulHammond
2005-04-27 22:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Abraxas
Post by PaulHammond
prowess of the average mathematician
Who could only ever get a job in a pub. Some prowess.
I notice you are still ducking the question that was
asked. Have you considered a career in politics?

Here's a repost, so you might actually get to address
the point.

The question was DID YOU LOCK YOURSELF IN THE BATHROOM
JUST INCASE YOU PISSED YOUR PANTS???

Palu, victor by default

---

So, Holy Chicken, is it true, as I said that

... he had locked himself in the bathroom of whoever
he was staying with so that he had easy access for when
his fear of the fighting prowess of the average mathematician
got the better of him...

cluck, cluck, cluck, Holy Chicken!

Palu, the victor by default.
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